Surecolor P5000 DTF notes

[johnson4]

Here I will just post random information about the P5000, may or may not be useful. With time I will post timings for The P5000 print speeds, how well it works and overall tips and tricks for it's use. 

 

Two things I DO NOT like about this printer- It has an ink system similar to the P600, Meaning it uses a diaphragm pump for the ink. This was a point of failure on the P600's. I was hoping/expecting an actual pressurized ink system like on the P800. It has an actual air pump that pressurizes the ink cartridges with air. This prevents color drop outs, clogs, and many other perks compared to a gravity fed/diaphragm pump system. On my p600's, this was ALWAYS a point of failure on 8+ machines I ran for years. While it was avoidable with 2-3 month cleaning schedule to flush the manifold, it took alot of time to complete and was a pain. To reiterate, the ink pump in the p600 uses diaphram type pumps for each channel that is in contact with the ink, rather than air pushing the ink to the head. These springs and rubber valves and tiny holes eventually get " sludged" and stop working correctly from the white ink pigment. 

 

Hopefully there is a better designed system with in the P5000. 

 

The p5000 has a built in self-feeding roll holder that fits the DTF rolls perfectly. It has a vacuum table to prevent head strikes. The 200 ML carts are resettable with a chip resitter. It's not to me, because it will actually tell me how much ink is remaining instead of guessing or running out like with chipless firmware. for smaller cartridges or CISS systems this is very annoying, but here it plays nicely into the whole idea. 

 

The cartridges themselves are $3.50 each, or $35 per set of 10. The chips are $32 a set, so $67 plus shipping from overseas. if you buy a few sets and some replacement parts it makes them less than $85 a set with chips. Resetters were about $35 each, one for the waste one for the chips. for about $250 you can have yourself two full sets of chipped carts and two resetters- all you need to get started. 

 

After that, Cadlink does 14 12" X 12" prints with this machine per hour. It's not bad at all for cadlink print speeds. I have yet to test anything else but I will have print time and quality comparisons like I have done in the past with cadlink, acro 10.5, ekprint. 

 

I like that is it big and open, it's easy to work on, I feel like Epson will discontinue this model within the next 12 months though, so I'm trying to get my testing out of the way post-haste. 

 

I have high hopes for this machine, I have been asking all of the " top" people around about this printer for about a year. I'm glad they ignored me when what I said upset them ( simply asking for facts from them). Now I have it first hand because of this. I have a feeling this will shock some people, However I have expected it from this machine for over a year. It's not a pissing contest for me. For me, It is the thrill of learning about a new printer and learning any new tricks I can find to better the cause and bringing actual backed-up information to the table. I have a reason for everything I do, and can prove it. I'm not here to make friends, likes, or sell you something. I'm here because this forum brought my idea's and hopes to life years ago. I like helping people with a real effort involved, not blatantly giving out answers without any reason other than an opinion. If I don't have time to explain why or what testing led to my conclusion, I don't say it because this is how misinformation spreads.

 

So anything posted within this thread is from hands on use, and in some cases I may be wrong. While I do test multiple times and look for a repeatable pattern,  Please question me if you like It helps me verify further with more evidence my beliefs from an educated/tested standpoint. I'm not here to make a " win" for myself. I am here to just as a whole, or community, build up the knowledge on things so the people who are involved working from different angles can all reap the rewards as a whole. That's the idea anyway. 

[TeedUp]

Printheads are a little pricey, (compared to XP600s), I see $800-$1K-ish. That scares me a bit. 

Any data on head life expectancy, even for "normal" ink?

[black2002ls]

Thank you for the write up! After our conversation, I ordered a P5000 to start our DTF journey. It should arrive next week, though I still need to order a shaker/dryer!

[johnson4]

25 minutes ago, TeedUp said:

Printheads are a little pricey, (compared to XP600s), I see $800-$1K-ish. That scares me a bit. 

Any data on head life expectancy, even for "normal" ink?

From my experience expensive Epson heads don’t fail, you break them from mistakes. Seriously. The low end xp600 heads, I’ve been running those for several months without issue. Time will tell. It’s said the i3200 needs replaced every 6 months or so, again, a pulled head for a lower end Epson machine. Each Chinese machine takes at least TWO of these $1,100 heads. They are only 4 channel heads. 
 

i have been using Epson printers for aftermarket “use” since 2016. I can’t tell you how much shit I have broken, how much time I have dedicated to learning what I know hands on. Every little thing I do, it’s never a “guess” or blindly following someone else’s opinion. Never has been or will be. I get it wrong, I learn hands on and correct myself. 
 

 

with that said, back in the day till now I have went through:

 

4 Epson 1430’s

2 Epson c88

10 p600’s

3 p400’s

8 p800’s

2 R2400

1 R1800

2 Chinese machines

likely other things I have forgotten

tons and tons of cartridges, parts, printheads, failed ideas, you get my point. We break stuff to learn, I do. 
Since 2016, using aftermarket printers SOLELY which is 6-7 years, they have produced over  2 million gross worth of retail priced product within that timeframe solely from Epson conversions. I don’t know how else to give you an idea how much I use them. No that’s not profit or bragging. It’s to help you understand I’m not just playing with them. 
 

 

EVERY SINGLE TIME a head has failed me, was because of some mistake I made. Mostly innocent, I had no idea how fragile or how each and every aspect can affect them, and varied by model/design. 

 

one single head strike can do nothing, or it can completely kill your head instantly. Using bad or low quality ink, using cartridges without filters, not cleaning and maintaining them as you should based on the printer model. Trying “ unconventional “ methods will weaken or kill the head, like manually cleaning them with a syringe. Anything over 5 PSI and even if it works now, it won’t for long. Bad sealing capping stations, partially clogged capping stations, dampers, I mean it’s endless. 
 

any one of these can destroy your printhead, and unless you really look into it and DIY put in the time and effort, you won’t really know for your situation what happened, so you’ll likely make that mistake again, not knowing what caused the failure.

 

for me, I have never given up or “ not known” why a failure occurred. Every single time, it’s been because of something I did or didn’t do and has taken a huge chunk of my life the last 6-7 years. 
 

right now I have a p800 running on two years old, my main machine. Goes through 2 rolls of film a week minimum. Still going strong. 
 

i also had a 2 day old p800 printhead fail because of a head strike when the film fell off the holder. It was about 12 inches of head strike. Never worked again. 
 

it’s all on YOU how long they last. These Chinese printers use lower end heads, not that is bad, but they do.  Epson is out to make money, like anyone. They are usually Epson pulls from low-mid tier discontinued printers. The p5000 for example uses the same printhead as Epson’s DTG F2000/F2100. Exactly the same. That machine is actually based on the P5000. That head is $1,300 or so from Epson direct. The p800 8 channel head is around $900 direct . Yet, I can buy a 4 channel head for $1,100 for the Chinese printer ( don’t forget they take 2-4 of them). 
 

 

at the end of the day it’s trying to compare apples to bananas. The Chinese machines offer ALOT over the lower printhead quality it uses. Epson’s offer much less, but do offer higher quality prints and better heads. It’s a 50/50 split based on if you want mass production easy or if you want the best quality you can Get with a bit of effort.  
 

the worst thing you can do is ask a total stranger for advice on what you should do. They likely have very little experience or time invested and simply just “ found out” what they relay to you, which puts you both in the same boat eventually. 
 

Time after time I see a simple fix turn into a total disaster because the go-to is to mess with the printhead. I’ve learned it’s the last thing I do, the printhead failure is always in my experience an “after effect” because something else failed or went wrong. 
 

like your wheel bearing on your car failing, keep driving it like that and you’ll need a new rotor, caliper and pads and bleeding out the overheated fluid from the slight sideways sag causing brake drag. 
 

in this scenario, the bad wheel bearing is your point of failure, yet everything else fails with it as an effect because you didn’t know, or care. It’s a chain, one broken link caused it all to fail. 

[johnson4]

1 hour ago, TeedUp said:

Printheads are a little pricey, (compared to XP600s), I see $800-$1K-ish. That scares me a bit. 

Any data on head life expectancy, even for "normal" ink?

if you do your best and chug forward, it’ll cost you some money for your success. If you sit around pondering over a few nickels, you’ll likely be stuck there. First hand costs money, but is well worth the accuracy of the knowledge you learn which propels you forward past the competition. 

[johnson4]

1 hour ago, black2002ls said:

Thank you for the write up! After our conversation, I ordered a P5000 to start our DTF journey. It should arrive next week, though I still need to order a shaker/dryer!

Not a problem. I intend on being very specific in my testing and it will all come back to this post when I finish.

 

i wish you luck!

[johnson4]

So I received my p5000 aftermarket cartridges. 
 

the chips recognized instantly- the first time. 
 

the cartridges seem to be hit or miss to fit perfectly, some get stuck a little. Works fine though. 
 

the aftermarket chips, well they also don’t seat well sometimes. 
 

so naturally I test the test function on the aftermarket chips by resetting them and reinstalling them. None of them are recognizing now, at least at first. It’s that whole “ game” of getting one side to recognize then the other. When one recognizes then one that previously recognized now isn’t. Been here before multiple times with multiple models and why I used Chipless supported printers. Epson’s way of putting up that middle finger. 
 

so I look and almost every aftermarket chip on the p5000 says “ one time use” and the chip resetter says “ oem only”. Nice. So it’s mixed success. Not what I want at all. The aftermarket chips also do not appear to count down the ink correctly, so possible running out of ink or requires constant checking the ink in the carts. 
 

 

The OEM carts have a damper in them, which prevents ink back feeding into the cart. The aftermarket’s do not. So of course, that could be an issue with the way the p5000 pressurizes the ink. Maybe not catastrophic, but at the very least less performance. Of course the damper could only be there to prevent refilling them, except I had oem ink backfeed into the cleaner carts. 
 

 

so further testing to see if this will be an issue or not. 
 

 

now for the chips, I find the aftermarket chips unreliable. If I have to spend even 5 minutes messing around trying to get them to recognize after a reset I’m not interested. 
 

i have already tested and verified oem chips will reset and function correctly over and over. so I am going to use the OEM chips on the aftermarket carts for now, if those carts show at all not having dampers in them will be an issue, I will switch over to the stock carts with DTF ink instead. 
 

overall I’m making progress, but I can see several issues standard users are going to face that could make this printer a headache. 
 

me personally I will bypass these shortcomings and document them here. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by johnson4

[anum11]

Catridges are a problem. Printhead is also a lot sensitive from other epson heads, it clogs very fast on mistake and very hard to unclog. Permament clogs happens fast, this is not suited for someone who will use as his first printer.
 

Used printer might give a lot of headaches so stay away from used printers of this model. 

[johnson4]

4 hours ago, anum11 said:

Catridges are a problem. Printhead is also a lot sensitive from other epson heads, it clogs very fast on mistake and very hard to unclog. Permament clogs happens fast, this is not suited for someone who will use as his first printer.
 

Used printer might give a lot of headaches so stay away from used printers of this model. 

Thanks. I’ve already tested using oem chips on the aftermarket carts and it works well. I’ve also made a plan to refill the oem bags if needed and use the stock cartridges. I’ve bypassed the ink sensor in the cartridges.

 

my plan is to run machine with 6 channels. CMYKWW. This leaves me with 4 spare channels that can be anything, white or cmyk. Should be enough to get 12 months use out if it. 
 

printer speed and built in functions are worth the headache, it shouldn’t suffer any type of headstrike. One big reason it might have clogging issues is there aren’t any filters in the cartridges. I’ll also test a filter in one of my aftermarket cart builds, see if that helps. 
 

overall I plan to do EVERYTHING I possibly can to make this printer work. 
 

don’t you run the 4900? 
 

i expect the vacuum platen mixed with the self feeding roll to cut down or entirely eliminate  headstrikes, the primary reason for permanent clogs and failures in other printers for me. 
 

I lost my original p800, at least it needs ink system repair. It’s ran for over a year, running 8-16 hour days almost everyday. 
 

What took it out- I threw a white ink cartridge against the wall by accident. Seemed fine- was not fine. Did something to the ink system and leaked ink everywhere. Head still works though. I’m hoping something close to this length of use from each 5000. 
 

maybe not- I still haven’t gotten DTF inks in there yet. Just now got it printing the speed and quality I want with OEM. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by johnson4

[johnson4]

i know for a fact filtering and or adding a filter is very important. I’m sick of these aftermarket carts that are so poorly made. I get patent issues, but c’mon. Lol. 
 

i will say someone or a bunch of someones are buying this model up for something. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by johnson4

[johnson4]

I can confirm, aftermarket chips and resetting them suck on the p5000. like, I don’t know why anyone would put up with it. At first they show they’ll work perfectly, once you reset them, PITA. May just be my supplier, but at $30 a set of chips delivered, I’m not interested in that cost for ease of use. 
 

OEM chips detect instantly, count the ink level accurately, and reset endlessly without a hiccup. A few small mods and the OEM chips are running fine on the aftermarket carts. I mean, it’s like night and day. I love that I can actually see what ink is used so I don’t even have to look at it. 
 

So I’m past the first hurdle and now I won’t need to worry about “ 3rd party” messages, or any of the headache that goes with that. 
 

next I’ll be loading it up and printing a full 13” 300 foot roll. I expect it to take 14.3 hours of nonstop solid printing to run through the whole roll. I will check it’s nozzle consistency, how often it clogs, if it’s a specific color so on and so forth. This will also test the circuitry to make sure it can handle this level of use. 
 

overall, I’m going to run the shit out of this machine. I’m also going to modify my black mini shakers. I’m going to extend the “lid” 10” and space the bulbs a little more.
Simple enough to do keeping it at 1300W per setup. I’m noticing I don’t need more bulbs or heat, just longer heat time. So this should work. I’d I find cold spots, I’ll add another 350W bulb making it 1650W, well within my 1800W limit and adjust the bulb spacing accordingly. 
 

overall I’m going to make this work, or I’ll have a heap of trash, until one of those happens I’m not giving up.
 

Too many people come to me because the Chinese printer quality just isn’t what they want. Fast and easy,  they are for sure.

I’ve never been “ fast and easy” so we’ll see how this goes. most people want thin lines, perfect underbases, and overall a level of vivid and boldness I don’t see with any Chinese printer. 

 

im after speed, quality, reliability and affordability . Something that is next to impossible from the years I’ve been here. Time to see what I really know. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by johnson4

[johnson4]

Without going into details- This machine is going to change the industry if it stays in production for long. 

[anum11]

On 6/18/2022 at 6:26 PM, johnson4 said:

Thanks. I’ve already tested using oem chips on the aftermarket carts and it works well. I’ve also made a plan to refill the oem bags if needed and use the stock cartridges. I’ve bypassed the ink sensor in the cartridges.

 

my plan is to run machine with 6 channels. CMYKWW. This leaves me with 4 spare channels that can be anything, white or cmyk. Should be enough to get 12 months use out if it. 
 

printer speed and built in functions are worth the headache, it shouldn’t suffer any type of headstrike. One big reason it might have clogging issues is there aren’t any filters in the cartridges. I’ll also test a filter in one of my aftermarket cart builds, see if that helps. 
 

overall I plan to do EVERYTHING I possibly can to make this printer work. 
 

don’t you run the 4900? 
 

i expect the vacuum platen mixed with the self feeding roll to cut down or entirely eliminate  headstrikes, the primary reason for permanent clogs and failures in other printers for me. 
 

I lost my original p800, at least it needs ink system repair. It’s ran for over a year, running 8-16 hour days almost everyday. 
 

What took it out- I threw a white ink cartridge against the wall by accident. Seemed fine- was not fine. Did something to the ink system and leaked ink everywhere. Head still works though. I’m hoping something close to this length of use from each 5000. 
 

maybe not- I still haven’t gotten DTF inks in there yet. Just now got it printing the speed and quality I want with OEM. 

Yes for 4900 no headstrike whatsoever unless you run into clog or catridge issues it is a breeze to use. I can print good prints without white layer on 720*360. It prints 1 meter per minute. But since i dont trust dtf inks (all brands have quality control issues) i would not recommend this to a new learner.

[johnson4]

2 hours ago, anum11 said:

Yes for 4900 no headstrike whatsoever unless you run into clog or catridge issues it is a breeze to use. I can print good prints without white layer on 720*360. It prints 1 meter per minute. But since i dont trust dtf inks (all brands have quality control issues) i would not recommend this to a new learner.

I agree entirely. 
 

im doing 1440x1440 with underbase, it’s doing a 12”x12” print in 2 minutes 30 seconds being 360 nozzles, excluding the little dance in the beginning of the print job. 
 

so it goes about twice as fast as the p800, which for me is a 12”x12” every 5 minutes at 180 nozzles. Just like a 12”x12” takes roughly 10 minutes on a 90 nozzle machine. 
 

of course depending on the RIP. 
 

i used the OEM chips and reset them, I was going to make an adapter for them to sit perfectly on the aftermarket carts. I removed the ink sensor from the oem cart and attached it to the ink chip for ease of use. 
 

im pretty stoked with how well it works, I just wish it had some form of inline filter in the cartridges. 

[black2002ls]

Did you use the OEM chips on the aftermarket carts? Or are you emptying and using the OEM carts and refilling?

 

Our dryer showed up today. I need to sort out power and then I can, at the very least, turn everything on. 🤣🤣 

 

I still need to pick up RIP software. Then I can start figuring it all out. 

[johnson4]

2 hours ago, black2002ls said:

Did you use the OEM chips on the aftermarket carts? Or are you emptying and using the OEM carts and refilling?

 

Our dryer showed up today. I need to sort out power and then I can, at the very least, turn everything on. 🤣🤣 

 

I still need to pick up RIP software. Then I can start figuring it all out. 

I used the OEM chips for half of them, and have the other half ready when the other chips give me crap. If you can get the aftermarket’s to read, shouldn’t have an issue.  It doesn’t seem to count down the ink usage on them so once they recognize it should be fine. I couldn’t get mine to work as a set, using a few OEMs worked. 
 

i am not refilling the oem bags, it’s a backup plan if these carts give me an issue. 
 

i used an adapter on the shaker with a voltage converter. It only pulls like 1500W so. 2000/3000W converter would work.  Running 220 would likely be the best “ electricians” advice. I could change the plug it was about the same price so I went with the adapter for mine. 
 

 

shaker cures and works great, other than one issue. The duster portion motor failed, I have a 550 motor replacement coming that will be a huge upgrade for about $16 on Amazon. The original Motor has about a 20 lb stall point so the motor seems to be undersized. The replacement will have over a 100lb stall point with a built in cooling fan, so it should be reliable. 
 

if I can get an add on to profile the printer in Cadlink, or my favorite RIP to support it, I’ll buy another set for sure.
 

acro and Cadlink work with it. Acro is slower than the p800 with the p5000, so I’d recommend Cadlink shockingly.  

Edited June 23, 2022 by johnson4

[anum11]

I am using this with sublimation ink for diffirent purpose. 4900 have 11 carts, when you first open the printer always one of catridges throws error you pull it out and pull back it in. Some catridges dont sit in very well so i taped some chips to make sure they sit well.

since it is sublimation i use it at 720*720 double cmyk. This gives me 1 meter each 2 minutes. I can go down to 720*360 on acro then it gives 1 meter per minute but quality drops a bit.

 

I use refillable catridges with auto reset chips bought from china.

[johnson4]

49 minutes ago, anum11 said:

I am using this with sublimation ink for diffirent purpose. 4900 have 11 carts, when you first open the printer always one of catridges throws error you pull it out and pull back it in. Some catridges dont sit in very well so i taped some chips to make sure they sit well.

since it is sublimation i use it at 720*720 double cmyk. This gives me 1 meter each 2 minutes. I can go down to 720*360 on acro then it gives 1 meter per minute but quality drops a bit.

 

I use refillable catridges with auto reset chips bought from china.

For me it was the entire side. I would get 10 recognized, pop in the 11th and get it going, boom, the entire other side goes unrecognized. I did this for several hours, also adjusting the seating and placement of the chips. It got to a point where they all instantly recognized that they were seated well, still wouldn’t allow me to use all 11 aftermarket’s. 
 

mixed with oem, even just one, it’s been working flawlessly. They don’t have ARC chips for the 5000 and these are sold as one time use, from what I’ve found from China. So they do need pulled and reset. You need to reset them 3 times before reinstalling and all is well. I dislike the fact they don’t show ink levels. If you reuse the oem, it will just be sure to reset it before it’s marked empty or it becomes an “aftermarket chip”. 

[JaRugz]

 I was wondering about the layout you used for your inks.  I saw in one of your posts that you'll be using a CMYKWW setup.

Does this means you'll only be using the 6 slots on the left? if so, what will you have in the slots on the right.

Also, I notice some of these new printers (mostly the chinese models) also have LM & LC inks.  Will these work in the P5000 as well.

 

Thanks as always for your help and advice. 

[johnson4]

9 hours ago, JaRugz said:

 I was wondering about the layout you used for your inks.  I saw in one of your posts that you'll be using a CMYKWW setup.

Does this means you'll only be using the 6 slots on the left? if so, what will you have in the slots on the right.

Also, I notice some of these new printers (mostly the chinese models) also have LM & LC inks.  Will these work in the P5000 as well.

 

Thanks as always for your help and advice. 

It works great with two white ink channels, just needs more frequent white ink refills. some programs require the use of four. 
 

i use cleaner in the empty channels. 
 

im sure you could use LC and LM if/when the RIPS support them on the printer. You’ll notice most of it is RIP limitations. 
 

 

[JaRugz]

Ok.  

Thanks johnson4....

I have two 4900's and a 4800.  Will be trying to convert one of the 4900 soon.

Always appreciate your help, advice and insight.

 

MJ

[johnson4]

5 hours ago, JaRugz said:

Ok.  

Thanks johnson4....

I have two 4900's and a 4800.  Will be trying to convert one of the 4900 soon.

Always appreciate your help, advice and insight.

 

MJ

No worries, they work good but clog super easy. 

[ADH01]

@johnson4 can the OEM carts be emptied and filled with DTF ink? If so, do you know of any instrictions to do so?

[johnson4]

1 hour ago, ADH01 said:

@johnson4 can the OEM carts be emptied and filled with DTF ink? If so, do you know of any instrictions to do so?

They have one way valves and a filter in the oem cart so it can’t be from the main port. If it ever reports empty to the printer it’s trash. 

You could very likely cut a small hole in the cartridge and bag, seal it to a filler hose and cap. It would likely work. Originally it’s vacuum sealed without air in the bag. 
 

aftermarket carts are about $100 a set delivered, I’d personally suggest that route to avoid problems. 

Edited October 30, 2022 by johnson4

[ADH01]

18 minutes ago, johnson4 said:

They have one way valves and a filter in the oem cart so it can’t be from the main port. If it ever reports empty to the printer it’s trash. 

You could very likely cut a small hole in the cartridge and bag, seal it to a filler hose and cap. It would likely work. Originally it’s vacuum sealed without air in the bag. 
 

aftermarket carts are about $100 a set delivered, I’d personally suggest that route to avoid problems. 

I have aftermarket carts on the way...just impatient